露西·海尔 (Lucy Hale) 首次谈论饮食失调、人际关系和成瘾访谈全文

Early context (02:46)

I tend to start these podcasts in a very similar way and I think in your case it's never been more pertinent to start in that way which is to understand your context. I've got to be honest. I read a lot about you online but I couldn't really get to the very crux of like who you are and why you are that way. And it was really, really surprising to me because it almost appeared that you hadn't done a proper, slightly deeper interview before? No, I think it's so interesting you worded that way because I actually didn't know who I was until very recently. And I think that's because, and yes, you might be the first real deep conversation I've had publicly and that's part of the reason why I wanted to do this because I'll start off with saying I just think you're so amazing. You're obviously very intelligent but like you lead with your heart and I was like, oh, I feel like this would be a good match for us to kind of talk. But yeah, I think because I moved to LA when I was 15 and started working pretty young that my identity became what I did for a living and my accomplishments and my successes or failures within my career space. So it took me a long time to figure out who I was or who I wanted to be. Like people would ask me what kind of person are you and I actually couldn't answer it. I had no idea. And through a series of, I guess we'll call it speed bumps, just we all have our own personal journey. I have, I'm slowly like peeling away that onion of who I am. And it turns out like that person's always been here. I just forgot she was there or like kind of put her in the basement if you will. But yeah, it's been an interest. It's been a really powerful last year for me. I will give you a heads up. I cry all the time. So just I'm getting you ready. I also have big eyes and they get really glassy but I get emotional when I speak about these things because I just love where I've landed in my life. And it's been a really, Jesus, I didn't know I'd get like emotional this early on. It's just been a really powerful and painful, insightful, joyous, horrible journey. And I love that I can sit across from you now and be my most authentic self. So that's a long way of saying I'm glad to be here. And it's not as it makes you emotional because you're happy where you are now. I mean, I've always kind of felt like an open wound. If that makes sense, like even as a kid, I just felt like I felt things in a really deep way. You could call that maybe codependency or taking on problems that weren't mine. But now I get emotional because of the perspective and just having pride in the choices I've made. And it's not emotional tears in a sad way. It's more just joy. Whereas I've been happy at different points in my life, but I hadn't ever experienced joy. And to me, the difference in happiness and being joyous, joyous is long term and sustainable. And it doesn't come from anything external comes from here. And and I had always heard people say that, that like true happiness comes from yourself. And I was like, what do you don't think? Okay, shut up. I got to know what you're talking about, but it really does. And it's been a slow grind. So let's start from the beginning then, your context before the age of 10 years old, growing up in Memphis, bring me into that world. Like, what do I, what do I need to know about that, that chapter in your life to understand the journey and the direction that journey took? Yeah. So from Memphis, family's also in Tennessee. I have an older sister who I adore and admire so, so much. I mainly lived with my mom growing up. My dad's still in the picture, but they were divorced really young. And I was just, what was I like as a child? I was, I think as long as I can remember, I've always felt kind of like, and I don't mean this in a sad way, like in a victim way. I've always felt like I was on the outside looking in. Like I never had a lot of friends. I never felt the need to make friends or be social. Like after school, I wouldn't want to go to a friend's house. I would rush to get home to go be alone with myself. So I've kind of always craved this feeling of needing solitude, because that's when I could sort of be myself. And I felt that as early as, you know, 10 years old. But I guess my love of entertaining came from my mom was married to this man who heard me singing in my room when I was probably like six or seven. I loved Aladdin. I loved Disney movies. And I vividly remember like pretending to be Jasmine on the Magic Carpet. And I would just sing with my little tapes. And he told my mom, like Lucy's got a good voice. And up until that point, I had never, you know, I was too young to even know what being a singer meant. But that led to taking singing lessons, which led to performing around Memphis. And mind you, I hated performing live. Like I felt for someone who's an introvert and someone who loves solitude, being on stage. And I'm sure we'll talk about this later. Like I ended up doing music as an adult. And I still had that same feeling. I just felt so exposed and it was really scary. And I run a little anxious. But anyway, so I grew up performing in that way. And then I found out what it meant to be an actor. This is probably around age 13 or 14. And we found this small agent who was like, Lucy should audition for this show that Disney's doing called Hannah Montana. This was years before they cast Miley Cyrus. And it was then it was that moment in that audition where I was thinking, Oh, I can act and sing at the same time. Like, this is my dream. This is my way out. You know, and I'll get, yeah. You're so smart. Yes. So I now as an adult, I'll circle back around to it. Because you know how I said it was hard for me to say what kind of person am I? It was also hard for me up until recently to know why I wanted to be an actor. I didn't know why until recently and I'll circle back around to it. But so it was this Hannah Montana audition, which led to knowing what a pilot season was and pilot season for anyone listening is when they don't really have a pilot season anymore because of streaming and everything. But it's when a network pays money for one episode to see if they want to invest in doing a series. You know what a pilot season is. But I talked to my mom into moving out to California. I didn't talk her into it. I think it was perfect timing for her and for me. And we packed up our Prius and all of our stuff, which wasn't a lot. I come from a very simple upbringing. And my mom was a travel nurse. She cashed in her retirement for us to move out here. And I always ask her now, I'm like, how did you? How did you do that? Like that's kind of insane. And she, and I'm sure she has her personal reasons too, but she was like, I kind of just had this feeling it was going to work out for you. That also makes me cry. And I also think it's really funny because if it hadn't have worked out, I'd be screwed because I didn't graduate high school. I wouldn't know where I belonged. Like, I think my lucky stars that it did work out because life would look a lot different, I'm sure. And then so we moved to LA planning to stay for three months at 15, and I never left. And I've been here almost 20 years. And now I guess it's a good segue into what I meant by a way out.

Acting was my way out (11:52)

And I guess what I mean by that is I never felt I knew that life there was not I didn't feel like home. I never knew where I fit in. I felt I love my family so much, but I always felt like the black sheep of the family. I just felt different even as a little kid. And it's no wonder that I got into acting because that was, I was always in my imagination. Like, my coping mechanism was like dreamland in my head. And like fantasizing about what my future would look like. Well, if you believe in the power of manifestation, my future looked like this. Like little Lucy kind of created this whole life for myself. And I just knew I wanted something different. You know, you used the word coping mechanism. Yes. I'm really, I'm really compelled by that. Okay. Because I sat with Maisie Williams. That was another reason why I really wanted to do this because I thought that episode in particular was so powerful. Really moving. Yeah, yeah, I got chills then just thinking about it because. And as you were speaking, there was a lot of like through lines and similarities as to what you were saying. Like Maisie really kind of lost her identity in because she was a very young actress and she became, but also she was in her own words using acting as a way to escape, which is almost what I had from you there. Yes, I didn't realize it. I realized now that my job completely was and has been at times a huge band aid for a lot of issues in my life because I have like very addictive tendencies and a very addictive personality and work like a lot of people can be such an amazing distraction. And we get away with it because you're productive. You make money. People like you. It's not like a negative, addictive behavior, but it's so easy to not heal or not focus on what's going on when you're constantly busy. And that's why after an experience like Pretty Little Liars, why everything kind of just like, you know, because we did that show for, we did 170 something episodes. I was like eight years of my life in between 20 and 28 years old. I don't feel like I emotionally developed in, I don't know what normal is, but I feel like I missed out on some normal experiences. And so it wasn't until that period of my life afterwards where I realized how I was contributing to my own suffering. And I didn't even realize the magnitude of it until I was outside of something like that show. In hindsight, when you look back on your younger years, you talked about your parents separating. What impact did that have on you in hindsight? Your view? You know, I often think about this because I think it was 100% the best decision for everyone. And I, you know, you hear about so many people staying together for the kids. Oh my fucking no, if my I'm so glad that my parents separated because it was the best thing for everyone. And it wasn't a happy marriage. I don't think, you know, and I want to respect both of my parents and not speak up really on that. But but I do think that it may have been a little toxic at times. And you know, I was four, my sister was six, and it allowed for a little more peace and calmness. And both of my parents are now remarried to wonderful people. And it all worked out. But I think I was raised by a single mom for a lot of my childhood. She was remarried for a little bit. But my dad is now back in my life. And he's given me so many lessons. I mean, I think that anything that's traumatic or painful, like I sort of just use that as ammunition to move forward. I'm like, what is this trying to teach me? What is this given me? Because we can look at any experience and say, and play victim. And you can, I think it's okay to be the victim when you're younger, like your teenager, your 20s. You it's kind of okay to do that and part of life. But I think at some point you have to take ownership of your life. That's why I feel like so many people are miserable because it's you're in victim mode. I don't ever want to be a victim of my life or in my circumstances ever. I want to be the happiest I can be and learn the most I can possibly learn about myself. And sometimes that means... You have to go to a dark place sometimes to like get to that point. Thank you. I'm a crybaby. Yeah, that's fine. I don't even remember. Thanks. These remind me of like McDonald's napkins, which makes me happy. I love McDonald's. It's expensive building this set. We've run up. I love it. I love it. I don't even know what I was saying, but... Sometimes you have to go to a dark place. What was I saying before? Sometimes I go in a trance and I just talk and only remember what I was talking about. Oh, just talking about my parents' divorce. Yeah, I think it's so easy to look at these experiences and feel sorry for yourself. But life is so much more interesting and freeing and liberating when you look at something... When you look at things that have happened to you when you're a child and say, "What beautiful lesson did I get out of that?" And if we're just taking my parents' divorce as an example, the biggest lesson I learned from that is, "What kind of love do I want in my life? What am I going to stand for or not stand for?" Something I always stand by in my life is like, "I'm not settling. I'm not settling." That just means people got to meet me where I'm at. I've worked too hard to feel how I feel today for jobs, experiences, people, relationships, lovers, friends, whatever it is, like, got to meet me here. And it doesn't mean you can't compromise with people. That's different. But I just allow a certain kind of thing in my life. And yeah. Your grandmother. My grandmother. Good at tattoo on your left wrist. Oh, wow. Yes.

Your grandmother (19:09)

I saw you pulling out your left wrist. So I just went with it. I love you. Perfect. So... We're all the cheap play in this picture. So she, her name was Karen, and she was my dad's mom. And my grandmother, rest in peace, you amazing soul, she was the coolest badass woman I've ever met. She taught me about things that maybe I shouldn't have learned at such a young age. She would put on Oprah when Oprah would be talking about really heavy topics. She put on the movie "Greece" when I was a kid. And that was a movie where I'm like, "Phew. I want to do that." And I don't know where you land within the medium psychic space, but I've talked to, I do, I practice Reiki with this woman named Katie who always senses my grandmother's energy. And every kind of experience like that, my grandmother's energy has showed up. So I truly believe that she is here with me. But she was just smart. And she thought differently than anyone in my family. And as an adult, I can look back and think, "I'm so much like her. Like, I just... I miss her." She died really young. She died of emphysema. And it's shocking I never picked up smoking because I told you I'm like an extremist, but I've never been a smoker because of her. And yeah, she died in her mid-60s. She was so funny. Like she had breathing tubes on and she smoked until the day she died still. But that just like showed you who she was. She just was a powerhouse and so funny. And I miss her. I miss her all the time. I... And it's kind of sad because I don't have that many pictures of her because it was before I had a cell phone and she died when I was 15. So I maybe had just gotten one of those sidekicks or Nokia phones. And I just don't have that much tangible memories of her. You named after her then, right? Yeah. Yeah. Karen Lucio. And so she definitely lives on in me in that way. And yeah, that's nice to chat about her. Thank you for bringing her up. I was really inspired by the love your mother must have had it for you, but also really the belief she must have had in you to move to LA with you when you were 15.

Your mother (21:50)

I'm assuming purely so you could pursue a career in Hollywood at 15 years old. Yeah, it's totally bizarre. And when I tell people that, I just have to set the tone. My mom was not a stage mom at all. And by that, I mean she wasn't. It was never forced upon me. I she just always encouraged me to follow this dream, which is so incredible because you hear of so many people where it's the opposite, where the parents are forcing a dream you don't really want on to you. And she just sends still a lot of willpower. My mom is such a hard worker. I do believe I have my, I get my drive and work ethic from her. And she's so selfless. Like she would give her last penny to anyone and just loves with her entire heart. And my mom and I have definitely had our rough moments in over the course of our lives, but we're in such a beautiful place now where we really can show up exactly how we are without getting triggered or defensive because we're really similar in the way we approach our emotions, I guess. And so we kind of have butted heads at times, but she's always been my just biggest fan. And I have no idea how, because I because I often think if I had a daughter who wanted to do what I want to do, would I do that? I don't know. How do you know? It's kind of insane, isn't it? Thanks, mom, for being insane. I love you for it. Like, thank God. But it was a risk for sure. And she came and worked as a nurse. Yeah. So she, the only way we could afford to live out here, because as you know, cost of living is insane. She was a travel nurse, which is kind of an agency for nurses that live across the world. And they could place her at a hospital and they would pay for a rent. And she would make a little extra money. But I mean, we were kind of barely getting by, barely getting by. And yeah, I feel like there was always kind of financial worry there, but we always, she always made it work. We always figured it out. And by sort of 16, you start working in TV shows and stuff out here in LA. Yeah. So the first, so this is a really cool story to tell you, because I just got back from Vancouver. But the first show I ever did, the first series was called Bion and Quaman, was a remake of a show, a really popular show from the 70s, 80s on NBC. And I got cast as the little sister. And we lived in Vancouver in this building right by the sea line. And then I, now 19 years later, just was working up there again. And I look out the window of the building I was living in. It's the exact same building my mom lived in. And I'm like, that is just the universe full circle. It was the coolest, full circle moment of being 16 there with my mom on my first job to everything that's transpired to me being 33 working there now. It was just like this really incredible moment. But, but yeah, I started kind of working, supporting myself since 17. And then I think my mom saw that I somewhat had a good head on my shoulders by 18. And then she moved back to Tennessee. That period between you being 16 and 19, when you're living out in LA predominantly, before you get cast for pretty little liars, how do you feel about that chapter of your life?

When you reflect on that chapter that 16 to 19 year old chapter, what do you think? So interesting because I actually haven't seeing this building in Vancouver was the first time I had thought about that time in my life in 10 years. I actually haven't said and thought about. I also feel like so much of my memories are kind of blurry from that time. I, so weird, like I can't even answer that question. I think I was very grateful to be in LA and pursuing this dream. But that was kind of the beginning of it all of what was to come. Like, I wish I could go back and tell my 16 year old self like buckle up girl, we're going to get through this, but we're going to go through some shit, you know. I, and I've been open about this before. Like, I struggled with a eating disorder. Most of my teen years up until like mid 20s. And it was around that time that it had kind of, that was like turned up to attend. And I, and it, I mean, it's all in direct correlation with moving to a new city, throwing myself into the world of acting. Like, I think my life kind of fell out of control in a way and my emotions fell out of control and body stuff, food stuff is all needing, needing to control. And so yeah, I mean, I guess I look back on that time and I have compassion now. Like, I don't want to say I feel sorry for myself, but I do believe in like, I mean, I was a teenager, but all the inner child work where you just kind of see that image of you, young you, and really hold space for that and really speak kindly to yourself. But honestly, I don't really remember a lot more. And I don't know if that's weird, but it, I also feel that similarly about my childhood, I have certain memories, but I don't know, maybe I was disassociating a lot. I told you I lived in my head a ton, so I don't know. It seems like so much has happened since then. Eating disorders. Yeah. How do I understand that? As someone that's never experienced eating disorder, how do I understand that?

Your eating disorder (28:17)

Is there a moment where you realize that there's a problem or you notice behavior patterns that you think are unhealthy to say the least? I think from anything that disrupts your life or your happiness or your relationships or your career, that can be described as a problem. And I think for me, it was all I thought about from the moment I woke up until I went to bed at night. How much should I eat? How much should I work out? I would step on a scale 30 times a day. I was eating so little that it was shocking. And it wasn't really ever about, that's a lie. It was about the way I looked at one point, because I thought, if I could just be this number or this goal weight, then I'll be enough. Because it all rooted back to I don't feel enough. I don't feel like enough. Why? And that's still a question I'm figuring out, because it it self-worth and knowing I'm enough, like, where did the thought of I'm not enough come from? Did I hear it when I was a kid? I don't know. Did I hear something that resonated as you're not enough? Maybe. New Gabon Marte, do you know who that is? Gabon Marte? He came on my podcast. He's maybe the leading therapist, psychologist in the world, on childhood trauma. And much of the crux of what he talks about is where we learn this idea that we're not enough as kids. One of the things he said to me, which is still sat with me, is he said to me, he goes, "Children and narcissists," he goes, "When the parents arguing, the child thinks it's about them." And when he said that to me, I go, "Oh my God." It explains so much. It's bunches. Yeah. But we interpret that situation like that home life situation or whatever, as like, this is about me. Yeah. And so now I can look back and say, "Maybe as a kid, I thought my parents got divorced because of me. Maybe I, you know, there's a million different scenarios." So I'm certain I learned it at a young age. And as kids, none of us come out unscathed, right? Like we all take on some sort of pain and trauma from somewhere or someone. But mine manifested as an eating disorder initially, which then led to other issues, but it all started because I always try to think, "When did it begin? When did this obsession begin?" And I want to say it was maybe around like 13 or 14 when I had, no, no, no, like 14, 15 was starting homeschooling and I had to start logging my exercise hours. And it was for PE and you had to say, "I did PE today for X amount of time." And that's the only thing I can think of that started this obsession with movement. And then I saw my body kind of change. And then I started restricting eating. And then it became, like I said, just it slowly just grew and grew to something that I could not enjoy life. I could not have a conversation. I could not focus on anything. It's a miracle that I even started working and could focus on acting because it was, when I mean it was a constant loop, I don't know how I got out of it. And I mean, the thing with eating disorders is it can always creep back up on you. And there are days when I don't feel like my best self, but I love myself enough now to nourish my body. And it's so sad to think that I hated myself so much that I couldn't even give it basic needs like food. Are you kidding me? Like that is so tragic. And so many people don't understand the space of an eating disorder because there's a spectrum. And I can only speak from my point of view, which I mean, I really don't know any woman that has a normal relationship to their body or to food, because society makes it really freaking hard to like the way you look. Social media can be a really beautiful place. And you're doing such an amazing thing with the work you do and like changing lives. But like the social social media can be poison. I have to really limit who I look at, what I look at. And I'm a grown adult and it feels silly, but you have to like curate your life to keep your mind and soul and spirit feeling good. I always feel a little uncomfortable talking about an eating disorder because I'm sensitive. And I know that it can be triggering and hard for people to talk about food and bodies. And people don't understand how someone who objectively is thin could think they were overweight. But I can't explain it, but that's just what I saw and what I felt. And it, and now I can look back and see photos and think, Oh my God, I was so I wasn't seeing reality. You just create this narrative in your head that's scary and dark. And it ultimately wasn't about the way I looked. It was about so much more, which is, which is, I had no self-worth. Incredibly low self-worth. And I really owe it to like getting out of that. I dated a guy for a long time who was Italian. I mean, sounds so silly. It's like, how did you get help? It wasn't through therapy. I didn't start doing therapy until my early twenties for a different reason, but people always ask, how did you survive those horrible years of your eating disorder? It was my Italian boyfriend who loved and appreciated food. And he would make us go to dinner. And I learned to enjoy food again. And it was like each year that went by, I started to feel better and better. And then I booked Pretty Little Liars and it got a little dodgy again and scary, but I learned other coping mechanisms that worked for a while until they didn't. But now my relationship, I never thought I could call myself a foodie because today, like I love food. That's how I experience a new city or a culture. Like, I just appreciate it. And I know that we need food to survive. And I like, I like and love and respect my body too. If I'm tired, I rest. If I want to work out, I work out. I can just sort of navigate feeling uncomfortable so much better these days. Were you ever given a diagnosis for that disorder? Was there other medical intervention? Yeah, I did my mom shortly before she moved to Tennessee. She recognized it was a problem. And she helped in the best way she knew how. But I'm sure as a parent, she felt helpless and felt like it was her fault. Maybe I went to a therapist only a handful of times where that was the first time I had heard your anorexic. And that word just sounds so daunting and scary. But I mean, I've never been in denial though. Like, I've always had, I always knew it wasn't normal behavior. Like, I knew that my hair shouldn't be falling out. And then I knew that I shouldn't be able to see every bone in my body. But you get like addicted to this feeling of controlling your own body. And so I kind of knew it was a problem, but I didn't know what anorexia meant until this therapist had told me that that was probably like age 17. Yeah, I haven't thought about all that in a long time too, because I'm so on the other side of it. And it's nice. It's so nice to not have that hamster wheel in your head about that all the time. Being in, being in LA, being in the entertainment industry is a, I imagine a tricky place to be when you're contending with issues of eating disorders. And because of the influence of advertising and movies, especially back then, social media, etc. I just can't, I can't, having never experienced an eating disorder before, but then thinking about being in this environment. Yeah. Well, what was interesting is that it started before I even moved to LA. The eating disorder was when I was like 13 before I'd even thought about, you know, before I'd found success. So, so I'm certain the things I've dealt with in my life. I would have dealt with anyway. It just might be on the opposite end of the spectrum, because I think that the reasonings behind all of these things are those are old feelings. That's old stuff that has been ruminating for a while. But yeah, I mean, this industry is at a different point now where so many people are accepted, different types of people, different bodies, everything. And it's such a beautiful place. I think the industry is heading, especially for a woman. But when I was turning out, it wasn't really that way. And then I like book a show that's called Pretty Little Liars. What? It's so I'm like, okay, well, we got to be pretty and we got to be little. Okay, well, we got this. And you're also 20 years old, where everyone wants to look a certain way. Like that did you all want to look the same and you want to, you know, it just all flared up again. And it was all I thought about again, you know, because I thought I had overcome it. And then, but then it became a thing of control. It wasn't and then it ultimately, it wasn't about wanting to be pretty or little. It was about this is scary. My life has completely shifted overnight. Millions of people are seeing my face. Instagram had just started. You know, it was just sort of beginning. My first post ever on Instagram was me and of season one of Pretty Little Liars. And it was like, my life was now under a magnifying glass. I felt out of control. Uh oh, guess we got to control the way I look again. And then I'll be enough. And then people will like me. How do I, my, my MO for so much of my life was how can I get people to like me? Even though I hated myself. And like real confidence is not, my whole Instagram now is just like silly affirmations, but it helps. But I read something the other day that's true confidence is not, I hope they like me. It's something I'm paraphrasing, but not, I hope they like me. It's I'm okay and know who I am, even if they don't. And yes, that's exactly what it is. And that confidence is what I've been searching for my whole life. And to know that and to show up anywhere I go with anyone with new people and say, I'm accepted because I accept myself. I have value because I value myself. You can put me in any situation, anything. I truly mean this. And I have the confidence that I'll get through it sober and happy. And it's been one hell of a journey. And I like truly, I'm not going to cry again. I wouldn't have changed anything. I literally would not have changed any dark moment situation because the perspective and empathy I've gained from that I would not have otherwise. So you said I hated myself. I know it's such a strong word. And it makes me sad that I felt that way. Maybe hates a strong word. I do this sometimes to all say something, then I'll backtrack and try to like paint it prettier. But things are ugly sometimes, right? Yeah, I maybe it's more that I just didn't feel worthy of the things I had in my life. I didn't feel deserving because a lot of my life posts success. I did not feel worthy of the success or the career or the people in my life. It was like this limiting belief that you're a fraud. If people really knew who you were, they wouldn't like you. Like you're worthless. You don't deserve this. And even though I wasn't actually saying those things like subconsciously, that's what was happening, I think, because I would keep making the same mistakes and be like, well, why is this happening? It's because I had this belief that I didn't deserve any of it. When you live with that sort of lack of self-worth, it manifests itself in a variety of ways. One of them you talked about already, which is trying to gain control over something because then if I can control this, maybe I'll go on a bit of self-worth from the scales or the mirror, whatever it might be. What are the other ways that that manifested itself in your life, that lack of self-worth? I've heard you talk about people pleasing. You said something curious a second ago. You said that the eating disorder was the start of it. And then you said you were going to go on to say something else. Yeah. I mean, it all kind of ties in together. I think the people pleasing is such a big thing. I've been working through in my life because what people pleasing does is you're doing things that aren't authentic. You're doing things you don't want to do. What does that do? Well, it builds anger and resentment. Well, then if you repress that anger and resentment, then what happens? Well, it's going to come out some way. And for me, for such a small human, I have so much rage now sorted through. But for so much, I just bottled up that rage. And for me, the coping mechanisms I discovered worked for me were incredibly self-destructive and self-sabotaging. I'm not sure when this podcast comes out. And I've never talked publicly until yesterday about being sober.

I have a little over a year of sobriety, which the people in my life, my friends, my family, who are just the greatest people in the world and have stood by my side. I've been working on getting sober since I was 20. I'm 33. It takes time. It took time. And it took patience with myself. This is a topic I could talk about until the end of time. But basically, what alcohol did for me, we did a couple of things. It was like this feeling of, "Oh my God, this is what I've been searching for my whole life. I'm my truest self, right? I'm so much funnier and cooler and people like me." That's all bullshit. Guess what? Not true. I was not myself, not my truest self. But it started with, "Wow, I can be free and funny and boys will like me. This is when I'm younger, right?" And I just held onto that belief that Real Lucy came out when she was drinking. Guess what? Real Lucy did come out, but it was that rage and pain that I had been holding onto for so long. But it also quieted my mind. I feel like, and I'm not the only person on the planet that deals with this, but my brain just goes, doesn't shut off. It's exhausting. But when I drink, because I was textbook binge drinker, blackout wouldn't remember what I did, what I said, which is scary. And it's also hard to explain that type of drinking to someone because people who haven't experienced it or dealt with it personally, addiction is such a topic that is still so taboo because people would just tell me, "Well, Lucy, don't drink." "Oh, thank you. Oh, okay. Thank you so much. I'll try that. Thanks." But now it is that. Now it's like, "Okay, I just don't pick up the first drink and I'm fine, because what would happen for me is I'd pick up the first drink, I'd like the feeling, I'd have another drink. I'd really like the feeling." And then it was past drink too. Don't remember. I wouldn't remember the rest of the night. Through what period of your life was this, right? Since you were young? I've had an issue from my very first experience drinking, which was like age 14, up until a year ago, I have had a problem. I've never had a period of my life where I was a normal moderate drinker. It was always, "Let's go. Let's just..." I was willing to just go to this crazy dark place every time. And of course I tried to be a moderate drinker just having to. I have an allergy to alcohol. I cannot drink. I view it as an allergy to alcohol. My brain doesn't work the same way as someone who can just have a glass of wine. It always wants more. It's like craving that feeling. My best friend has just actually finished a documentary on this subject matter. He was my best friend, but also my business partner for many years. The point where he realized he had a problem, we had a bit of a face to face because he had done so much damage. And there was one particular instance where he did so much damage to himself, our company, our team members, that we met on a Sunday and we basically, it was that kind of ultimatum moment, which is, you're going to have to leave. You can do a lot of damage, right? When you have that relationship with alcohol and you have an addiction to alcohol and it brings out that side of you. Did you ever have moments like that where people close to you said? Yeah, many times. But it's one of those things. I remember the point in my life where I woke up a morning after drinking and it was when I wanted to keep drinking. I was like, oh, my reaction to alcohol is different than my friends. This is different. And I've known I had a problem this whole time. There was never a moment where I thought I was normal. There had been moments where I didn't want to change because I'm like, I'm not giving this up. Are you kidding me? Who would I be if I can't have fun and let loose and drink? But I had many times, my manager of 19 years who is an angel, truly an earth angel. I believe has saved my life at times. This woman has been there for me. She's had hard conversations with me. I've had friends who've tough loved me. I've had friends who say, we can't until you do X, Y, and Z. I've always been shown love and support. But the thing about addiction or just life in general, like you got to want something for yourself. Like, I had so many things happen where you would have thought I would change. I tried to change for boyfriends. I tried to change for my mom. I tried to change for my career. I tried to change for vain reasons. I'm like, well, I'll look younger and be skinnier. I'll stop drinking for that. None of that shit works. I had to and wanted to get sober January 2nd, 2022, because I said, I deserve more. I deserve more out of this life. I have to try a different way. And I have to be willing to just commit to it. Because Ben's drinking, I would be sober for three months, then relapse, be sober for a week, relapse. And I never, the really crazy thing is, I never let it get in the way of my job, because my career has always been so important. But when I'd go home at night, it would just be like so dark and I'd be so in my head about it. But I it would be so dark. I was thinking then because my business partner described it as he there was a pain he was trying to escape, which we just never realized. He had a pain in his in his life, in his mind. I would find him downstairs three in the morning in the laundry room with the light soft drinking. I thought, Oh, man, just he just loves alcohol, right? That's what people think or like, Oh, you like the party. Yeah, exactly. But but I came to learn that there was a pain he was escaping that he hadn't addressed. Yes. Is that the same in your situation where there was an unaddressed pain or issue that you think you were using alcohol as a escape mechanism for? Yes, definitely. I mean, alcohol isn't the problem. The problem is this feeling inside of me. Alcohol was the solution, you know, for a while it was my solution. I'm like, Oh, I don't have to think about being good enough or or whatever the problem was. Like it worked for a really long time until it just left me feeling depressed, anxious, lonely, just worthless. But there is a big misconception about people who struggle in this way is that, Oh, they're weak. They just can't not do it or they liked a party or they just like booze. It's so much more than that. And yeah, for me, it was definitely old stuff, old feelings, pain. I do think that, like I said, I would have struggled with this no matter what I did for a living, but I think finding success at an early age and the people pleasing and and and trying to be what people wanted me to be made me feel like a fraud, right? Because like now I can show up exactly who I am and share my story. And to actually be able to talk about this is so freeing because it doesn't it's not like I'm it's chaining me down anymore. Like it takes the power away from it. Like I can be Lucy, which is not always cute at times, you know, like it's dark and disgusting and scary. And that's what makes us all complex, amazing, beautiful human beings is we've all got this shadow self. And you happy? And that chapter about 16 to 19 chapter? I thought I was I'm like, I'm getting a big paycheck. I'm happy. I'm no, like that's not real happiness. You know, you I had told myself the lies of you're happy or I felt guilty for not being happy because how could I not be happy? I had X, Y, and nobody wants to hear about someone in my position being unhappy, right? Like it's just to be real. Nobody wants to really hear about that. But at the end of the day, I've had to allow and I believed that too. I ran with that. Lucy, you don't deserve to be unhappy. How dare you feel these things? But now I know I'm a human being. And everything's relative. And I it's okay for me to have these very human experiences. And I found the people in my life that I can talk to about it. And was I happy? I had moments of being very happy. But not like this, not like this. Wherever I'm at in life right now, it feels peaceful, which I used to call boredom. I have moments where I'm bored. I'm like, oh, what kind of fire can I start today? But then I I rain that back in. You know, I never really usually pick the chocolate flavored hules. My favorite are the banana flavor. I love the salted caramel flavor. But recently, I think I in part blame Jack in my team, who is obsessed with the chocolate flavor heels. I've started drinking the chocolate flavor heels for the first time and I absolutely love them. My life means that I sometimes disregard my diet. And it's funny, that's part of the reason why I've had a lot of guests on this podcast recently that talk about diet and health and and those kinds of things because I am trying to make an active effort to be more healthy to lose a little bit of weight as well, but to be more healthy. And the role that he'll plays in my life is it means that in those moments where sometimes I might reach for, you know, junk foods, having an option that is nutritionally complete, that is high in fiber, that is incredibly high in protein, that has all the vitamins and minerals that my body needs within arms reach that I can consume on the go is where he will has been a game changer for me. Quick word from one of our sponsors. 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